Interview - Jeffrey Shaw

Leading National Authority of Self-Employment

Full Interview-

Transcription

Hey everybody I have an amazing guest for you today who has a unique beginning, which he has brought into his current life and teaches others how to excel. Today I’m going to be talking to, who’s waiting on the sidelines there, Jeffrey Shaw.
 
Let me tell you a little bit about Jeffrey. Jeffrey was one of the preeminent portrait photographers in the United States, he had this fantastic on-location style and fine craftsmanship that made him the go-to photographer for families of C suite executives Anheuser Busch, Twitter, many others. He worked with supermodels, Stephanie Seymour, news anchors, Jim Nantz, David Bloom, sports icons like Tom Seaver. He’s worked with Wall Street executives, too many for me to mention, and his portraits have appeared on the Oprah show CBS News in People and O magazine, and they hang on the walls of Harvard University, and the Norman Vincent Peale center. After 35 years of this exclusive clientele, Jeffrey decided to share his knowledge of business and branding and marketing to self employed people because here’s the big reveal. Jeffrey has never collected a paycheck in his life, he has always been self employed, and he has been teaching since then. He started the podcast creative warriors, which is now rebranded as a self employed life, but he is amongst the top 15% of all podcasts, and his TEDx Lincoln Square talk was later moved to ted.com, which I learned is about as rare as being hurt by your own toilet in your house. Pretty rare and unlikely. That’s what it is so, welcome Jeffrey, thank you so much for joining me today.
 
Thank you and I learned that from Tamsin Webster was a long time TEDx producer and she said that on the speech, long before I did my TEDx talk, I heard her say that in a presentation for a VM NSA National Speakers Association, and I just… that statistic stuck out to me so the moment morning I found out that my talk had been moved to ted.com She was my first text, I text her first I’m like, guess what, I beat the toilet injury statistic.
 
Fantastic. So, sounds like a TEDx that everyone should go back and listen to. Um, can we start with your beginning…so you have never collected a paycheck.
 
How did you start and most kids just go to work. You find a company, you go to work. What did you do?
 
I sold eggs. I sold eggs door to door. I grew up in is, what was then a small country town. It’s still a pretty small town but it’s about two hours north of New York City but in 1967 When my family moved there I was three years old. It was a really small town, I mean the classic, you know, farm land and party lines we shared a phone number with five other families. Some people might remember party lines. And, You know it was a small town, very humble upbringings, it was an odd… honestly, it was an odd upbringing in, as far as location because the reason we moved there was my father was one of the first 90 employees of what was to become a new startup Computer Company, which is IBM. So this is the early roots of IBM and this was going to be their production plant. They were still launching a production plant in Hopewell Junction, New York, but they call these Fishkill, kind of the town of it. And they started this production plant which later would of course become the largest computer production plant in the world but even at its peak, it was a town of 5000 residents, but I’ve employed 22,000 employees so it was like a vacuum for the whole area. But here they are. So everybody that lived there was basically a transplant like there was you know few farmers that still live there, but are more other than that everybody was transferred there and moved there for the opportunity to work at IBM, so you had this really weird situation of complete farm upbringing selling eggs door to door, but my father would bring home this technology and computers that was just unheard of at the time and talk about someday we wouldn’t need cash and it would be bars on merchandise and I was like a five year old kid or 10 year old kid I’m like “What is he talking about? What’s he smoking?” Right. But meanwhile I’m selling eggs door to door at 14 years old to make money. And, you know, borrowed my mother’s Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme if anybody knows it’s a tank of a car, and I could barely reach the gas pedal and see over the steering wheel the same time, I was like one, one inch shy of having to be Sophie on the Golden Girls and sit on a telephone book. So glad to have a drive around neighborhoods, again, I was 14 years old, two or three years before getting a driver’s license, but it was the country, nobody cared. I mean I did run over a few bushes and harmed a few lawns, but other than that nobody cared. But yeah I would drive around neighborhoods which of course the houses were far apart and I sold eggs door to door. My mom also owned a beauty parlor in town, which was like literally she just retired from it three years ago at 80 years old, had it for decades. And it was her right up to the day she retired, it was a beauty parlor straight out of Steel Magnolias like it looked exactly like that and so I would pack up cartons of eggs and all these you know little old ladies would buy these eggs, so it was a thriving business selling eggs and that was it for me like once I started that I’m like, to me there’s just no other way of, I just never occurred to me to get a job and it didn’t occur to me to go off to college because it wasn’t spoken about in the town I grew up in, I have two older brothers that didn’t go off to college they went straight into work in construction.
 
So you learned very quickly. Hard work worked for you. Your destiny and hustling worked for you.
 
Yeah, you know, I have to say for me and what do I reflect back on it now, is that it was more of a personal development journey than anything because I was, to be honest with you I had paralyzing shyness, which is the fact of a speaker phase, like that’s my biggest stretch right, but it’s not uncommon. I think a lot of speakers, I would say I think a lot. The reason a lot of speakers are introverts will identify as introverts is because as an introvert, or someone who’s dealt with shyness, you’re so used to uncomfortable situations you have the skill set to manage it. So being in the spotlight on the stage is actually no different than being in a crowd at a cocktail party. It’s just it’s a very, you learn to you learn to manage the emotions of what that feels like. And there’s hardly an introverted person that won’t, to some degree admit that they crave the spotlight. They’ve always been uncomfortable and but never received.
 
Okay, it’s funny as a fellow introvert, you learn to have a one to one conversation with 1000 people. Yeah, and it’s one to one conversation yeah sure you were too.
 
Yeah, and exactly the only one to one conversations that was the only thing I was comfortable with, but there. And I do think that helps us a lot as a speaker and particularly in this virtual world, because, again, my background is (?) certainly helps here too, but there’s a way in which I’m used to holding a two way conversation by myself.
 
And you can relate to that person that one person on the screen that’s…
 
yeah exactly so for me it just, you know, there was just no other way of, of creating a life for myself, than being self employed and actually leveraging that to become more than I thought I was capable it’s I felt very limited I felt limited by where I lived, I felt limited by the fact that I didn’t have parents that were going to support higher education. I felt limited by my own mindset because I thought so little of myself which was more of a reflection of how I thought people saw me, whether it was true or not, I felt like everybody saw me as a geek and a nerd and outcast and that’s how I felt when they saw it that was valid or not, that’s how I interpreted how they saw me so I put myself down. And so I didn’t see much opportunity, and I just felt like, you know, I share the story of the book to be honest with you… my father is a man of very few words, but something he said to me once, and he didn’t. I interpreted it in a much kinder way I think that he meant it, but he said to me one day, he said, “No one’s going to care about your life as much as you do”. And at the time he just kind of saying it from the perspective of “You’re on your own kid”, but I took it as, okay well if that’s true, then I’m going to give life my all, if that’s true then it’s up to me to turn myself into who I want to become. And for me, the only way of doing that is being self employed because you’re only answering to yourself, you’re always calling within yourself to become a bigger version of yourself, you’re always putting yourself on the line, you’re always challenging yourself to grow. And that’s why I literally chose self employment as a path for personal growth, not realizing, of course all the business benefits of it which I have loved as well but
 
I wonder, if like you and many others. Self employment. If you chose it or it chose you.
 
Isn’t it ironic I started by selling eggs because I don’t know which came first the chicken or egg I mean, I don’t know how he’s right there picking up those eggs but I don’t know which came first.
 
So, you’re living in a small town, you’re selling eggs. Did you go through a bunch of side hustles and then became a photographer? Where did “photographer come” from because you went from, I mean, a guy holding camera to the top of the industry, how did you do that?
 
Well that’s that’s the irony because I chose being a photographer to pursue my life as a shy person, right, because back in the day, everything was done in a darkroom. And if I was out in the world. I, you know again shyness can pay off in a lot of ways right because I was a masterful observer. I’d spent all my very young years, probably you know all up to 10 years old just observing. Now I was that five year old kid in a corner, and I was fascinated by people so I just watched, I watched life I was intrigued by it. By the time my parents would give us very little allowance I would buy like Wayne Dwyer self help books. I haven’t bought a book and self hypnosis once because I would try to, try to hypnotizing myself out of shyness, which did not go well. Well no I struck, it was a lot of a lot about body language like harboring the body language and the very few occasions I was hanging out with the neighborhood kids I tried one of my, you know, hip self hypnotize Power Poses. And the guy, or one of the kids looks at me says What the hell’s wrong with you. I now look back and he goes, it was probably look it probably looks something like a cross between Ru Paul and  Superman is kind of what I’m thinking it looks like. So, but I was really you know I So, I was just a masterful observer so photography just seemed like it was something I was moderately good at although what I enjoyed initially was the dark room work because I loved seeing something come alive in print form. But then I ran out of things to print my very first dollar I ever made. As a photographer, was from the FDR Roosevelt estate, because one of my neighbors worked for the state which was in Hyde Park, New York about an hour north of where I lived, he worked for the estate, and they had show horses and they needed somebody to print their show horse photos and I was, I became the Roosevelt estate printer of their show horses which is just insane, right. So the first payment I received as Farber was from Roosevelt like that’s not half bad. So, you know, to me, photography was anytime I was out in the world I was fortunate enough to have this big camera between me and the world and that was comforting to me. The irony was that I was so good at it that I got a lot of attention. Next thing I know I’m in high school, winning national awards and traveling, I go to cocktail parties in New York City because one of my photographs is being shown in a highfalutin gallery. I went off to photography school to consider pursuing as a career, I just didn’t know how it could become a career yet. And while there I received, literally every award that was given out by the school I got a scholarship to attend. It was actually two scholarships to attend summer photography programs and then I was nominated, you’ll love this, this is the roots of my public speaking. Again, I chose this profession to hide, and I wanted to be nominated by the student body to be the student representative at graduation and now I have to speak in front of the entire graduating class, and their parents and their family. I mean, come on, it’s like this was not what I planned when I decided to become a photographer. But again, personal development, it was pulling me pulling me up every step along the way.
 
And now you told me a story once so I think a lot of what you teach. Now, when you, when you talk to audiences, I mean you have a lot of a lot of great things that you teach, but the first thing that I ever took from you was relating to your audience. And you told me a story about shopping, what you learned from the lady in the back room. We’ll go over there, hopefully
 
It sounds worse than it was.
 
That was the first thing that I ever took from you that oh my god this is brilliant, you have to be able to relate to your audience. Can you share with us that story.
 
So when I got out of photography back to the aforementioned small country town thinking I was going to be a highfalutin high end photographer. Only because I might say that with some sarcasm because high end and that I felt like what I thought being a photographer, what I produce was a really high value therefore you should charge a lot of money for it. Now, a lot of money is relative when you’re 20 years old, and it’s just, you know, middle class talent at best, like what’s a lot of money. But I charged, to me it was a stretch. Unfortunately, the community was not willing to pay for it. So three years in, it was, it was this is a failing business okay it wasn’t getting this to work, and I was 23 Doesn’t sound like a big deal except at 23 years old. First of all, I’d already been married for three years because we do in the country. I already had an apartment, I had expenses but more than, more importantly what stood out to me at the time of struggling when I was really struggling wondering, I mean, I tell the story in the beginning, the lingo like having a fear, literally having a fear of banks, because how of how often I would go to the bank to transfer money to my business account my personal account, like $100 $150 and there wouldn’t be enough money to pay myself. So, you know, the biggest, the biggest part of the struggle for me was this is, this is the only route, I saw for a future. I didn’t have a college education. I didn’t have a family that was in any way, supportive of getting an education, like if this photography thing didn’t work, I didn’t see any other path forward. And I also realize how deeply I was emotionally connected to it being my source of personal growth. So, in that desperate moment. I actually had a client, I had a woman come in to inquire about having photos or having a family photograph and I made my great pitch, and she looked at me, she said, that sounds great but I don’t have the luxury of worried about my children’s childhood memories. And I realized at that moment that it wasn’t that I wasn’t producing good quality, it wasn’t that I wasn’t good at what I did it wasn’t that what I did was, was, wasn’t valuable it was, I was literally barking up the wrong tree. It was the business version of barking up the wrong tree. I was saying everything that was meaningful to me to the wrong people. I was living my truth my authenticity my values in a community that didn’t have the same values. So I had to… So what I did at 20 years old I kind of really broke down my values and and truthfully, from a business perspective, I broke down what’s the value of what I do and who will love that that’s actually chapter the main, the title of chapter two and those who will love that because that’s a


That’s what people ask, like how do I identify who our ideal customers and it’s like, well, identify what your values are what you’re best at and ask yourself the question, who will love that because there is an audience of people waiting for you to show up in the world. There’s some audience waiting for everybody to show up. So I determined that audience waiting for me to show up, happened to be affluent people and only because of their values, not I, I didn’t know what it meant to be affluent so it wasn’t that they had money per se, but they had discretionary income which meant they could afford to buy things that they didn’t mean the present but they would have more value in the future. Because nobody wakes up thinking I must have a family portrait, they, those that chose position at the rates, I was going to charge, and on, because I was I need to charge a lot more to be fit into this community. So what I did. And I don’t know where this instinct came from, I guess fundamentally I’ve always understood as a masterful observer, that if you want to connect with someone if you want to serve an audience if you want to build a business for an audience. You have to understand them. It’s not about you. Businesses are built backwards people build the business they want to build the way they want to build and put out what they want to say, but that doesn’t do you any good if it doesn’t fit the people you want to reach if you’re not matching their lingo, so I mean I reversed the whole process and said, look, it’s obvious to me value to value that I serve an audience that I know nothing about. What do I do, I learned the lingo, so I went to, as you mentioned, a store in New York City called Bergdorf Goodman which you’re probably familiar with super high end if I said it’s an exclusive it’s one of a kind, like there’s only one Bergdorf Goodman it’s on Fifth Avenue. And so I went there as this 23 year old kid wearing the members only jacket because that’s, that was cool. But I got could not look more out of place you walk into this high end store with crystal chandeliers and staff is like impeccably dressed and marble floors and this look nothing like Kmart. So I went up to the 7th floor home furnishings i had $20 That’s all I had 20 bucks. That’s all I had to my name. And by the way, there was this tapping noise on a marble floor and I realized that I literally had holes in the bottom of my shoes and there was this metal plate. Like, why it was like this metal plate like they were like full leather shoes and I was like this metal plate, and I heard this tapping noise and I picked up my foot and realize that I live the metal plate was sticking out of my shoes and tapping on the marble floors. It was the literal version of being so broke you have holes in your shoes. No kidding. So on the 7th floor I find the only thing, I think it the only thing in the store, maybe, other than a toothpick. Maybe a single tooth pick but the only thing was a tiny votive candle, and just the wax, not even a pretty case, but like the candle you apply to put into a nice container. And so I asked for it to be gift wrapped because what was already obvious to me is that presentation, had a lot to do with the lingo of this type of shopper. Okay, again where I grew up shopping presentation was not a thing just slap it down whatever you know, metal shelves that sort of thing. Well this is all about presentation, everything was so beautifully presented, I can only imagine that gift wrap had a big part of the presentation so I asked her to be gift wrapped. And the woman who brought me to the back room was the gift shop department I went there and I asked her if she could show me how to wrap this so that looked expensive I was trying to explain to her trying to understand the mindset of the shoppers of Bergdorf Goodman, and she brought me into the backroom and she showed me how to wrap this candle and what she did is such a unique technique. She wrapped the candle in wads of tissue paper wads and wads of tissue paper. And then before she put it in the box, she stopped and she looked at me, she said, don’t use any tape. So I had to ask him, Why can’t I use any tape was such an odd thing for somebody to point out, and she went on to explain exactly the mindset of the Bergdorf Goodman customer, which was that there, she said to me, they’re very particular before they give this as a gift, they’re going to untie the ribbon take off the box top unfold the tissue paper to make sure the candles are in perfect shape before they give it as a gift, refold the tissue paper, put the box back on or retie the ribbon. If you use tape, you would tear the tissue paper. And then it would be revealed that you had peaked in the package before you gave it, mind blowing, what that taught me in that moment was a couple of things one, I couldn’t imagine at that point moment that there was a brand that cared so much about their clients that they went to the effort of figuring out how they behaved, not just in the store but at home.
 
Then what was going to go on in their lives, but it also made me realize as I realized I felt like I had decoded a mystery in life, which lingo and a lot of ways is like decoding mystery because when I realized I looked around is that everything in business is a cue. And in Bergdorf Goodman. For example, one thing I noticed is that we see this all the time. Everything is marketing and designer brand names. Vera Wang. Isaac Mizrahi and all your high end couture designers were featured in the store. My business at the time had a hokey photography name, I changed it immediately to my own name so I was like oh there’s a brand image to build, when it’s in your own name so I changed the business to my name. I started looking at the psychology of pricing and I was like wow the pricing and high end stores is like completely vague, it’s just like $500 $3,000 Like there’s no sense. It’s not like, you know, Walmart $16.97 like right down,
 
it’s not like that. The price is I think in many cases don’t even reflect the intrinsic value of the item, it’s the image is the placement right yeah,
 
right, and really the psychology of pricing as I teach it is and this is so mind bending for most people to get around because nobody talks about it this way, that pricing is about perception and positioning, the only way you can get your prices right because you have to understand how your ideal customers see that sees themselves to the world, and match their lane. So as I was breaking into this market, I understood this clientele saw themselves in the world as only deserving the best, so I needed to price myself at a rate that they would assume by perception that this must be the best photographer out there because he’s dramatically more expensive than anybody else. It’s all perception. Of course I was. I am and I produced a really good quality, but it’s, you know, and I look at that, not as sneaky or conniving I look at all the strategies of lingo, as having, having a desire to have a such a deep understanding of people that you show up in their lives in a way that they feel like you completely get them. That is the root of it like I look as I want people everywhere it’s who coach today, the audiences I speak in front of my goal is to make my readers of my books, especially the readers of the books because if you can think about as much as you’re writing a book, it’s like, I want the reader to feel like I’m with them I get them. That’s the incentive of an audience like I intentionally make myself relatable. I want them to understand I’ve been where they are. And I want to give them innovative ideas they never thought about before, but in a way that actually causes him to sit back on their seat and think, Hmm, I’ve kind of felt that way all along I just never trusted my instincts as like as fundamentally I think that is one of the key components of self employed in small businesses and a lot of the trade association members and those that I speak to. Often, They want to be in business in a certain way they fight against the way business is done in the world, which actually doesn’t feel as comfortable to them, and in a way I’m granting them permission saying, guess what, the way you feel, actually works. Let me show you how to apply that strategy,
 
You know, where I was just jumping in, was that it’s not only the higher price the higher price the higher end client, it’s understanding, every client. When you talked about the tissue paper I suddenly thought of in and out burgers, and I recall that when I came out of the drive thru they said are you going to eat this right away or do you want to take it with you, and they wrapped this greasy gobby burger in a piece of paper that was peeled back so that driving my car, I could eat this burger, because again in trying to understand the clientele right because if they give me a Tiffany box that had to be taped and revealed, that’s not what I was looking for
 
it really goes with the mindset of every client
 
every bit and that’s what you know people have said to me after they’ve either heard me speak about lingo or read the book, they’ll say no I can’t unsee it. But it’s true, you realize like there’s a lot of psychology intentional psychology at Walmart. Right, This is not just for the high end there’s a reason that things are the reasons a reason Walmart promotes Walmart rollback pricing, and everything’s priced to the 100th cent. It’s so that their customers have confidence that they’re not paying even more than 100th cent more than they have to, like, so they’re meeting their customers where they are. And that’s what’s it there’s a reason there’s a reason, good, good brands strategically think this through. And I love that store I’ve been in in-and-out now a few times but I’ve always eaten inside so I’ve never had the drive thru experience but I love that, that touch
 
okay so I’m going to pull your way forward now so you have learned so much about branding and placement your customer and all these things from being a photographer, but that’s now, you are a full tim, coach, consultant, and public speaker you go and you speak mainly to self employed businesses which is a vast amount of the businesses in the US, and bring this knowledge to them. So, just tell me a little bit about that audience that you speak to now, and a little bit about, you know, obviously the knowledge you were just talking about, but what do you bring to an audience when they’re in front of you.
 
Yeah. You know, I think that the challenging journey for all of us is to actually drop more into who we are and what we have to bring in that’s kind of been my journey, it’s like, it’s the most obvious thing in the world to me that I should be speaking to self employed people because that’s been my journey all along. It just took me a while to, like, unwind the value of that, and to unwind, how I could support. So, by far, I mean it’s just what lights me up, and I used to I used to feel like I was for audiences of entrepreneurs. And while that’s still true, I like the more narrowed perspective of self employment because it’s more narrow than entrepreneurs, right, so speaking my speaking at trade associations and professionals are people who own their own business. I’m right there with them. I really really understand their journey and I think there’s, there’s so many things about being self employed, that if you’re not self employed, you just don’t get, you know, at the core of it like one thing that’s said in business all the time, is that, you know, it’s business is business don’t take it personal. But that doesn’t apply when you’re self employed, it’s all personal for no multiple reasons it’s all personal for one because your name might be on that business or whether it’s even if it’s a different name your business name is go leeward but hey you know that you’re behind that name I mean of course you’re gonna take it personal, but it doesn’t mean I’ll clarify is that we’re dainty wallflowers that get our feelings hurt really easily. It’s not like it’s so personal, we take everything personally. No, it’s that we care so much because I mean our name is attached to it. It also which is the link that really intrigues me is that there is a direct correlation between your personal development and your level of success when you’re self employed, unlike any other existence in business, because in order for your business to grow, you actually have to first increase your own capacity. And what I mean by that is that in order for your business to grow, you have to believe you’re capable of more, you have to remove blocks and limited thinking and think, in bigger ways you have to step into this is a tough one for a lot of people, you have to step into what you really deserve, and not be limited by some humbleness of what you think you deserve. You have to go through all this personal work to increase your capacity in your preparedness for more success before you can apply the action to gain that success when you don’t, this is the fundamental problem I see with self employed business owners. The reason that people feel that they’re working really hard or hardly getting ahead and they feel that they’re all over the place, or they have, you know, they’ve put in all the hours but not getting the results they want. It’s because they haven’t increased the capacity so they’re literally trying to fill up a limited container with too much action. It will always take action to be successful. Always, but you have to you have to strip down your own thinking and think bigger prepare yourself and even prepare your business like in the in the book I talked about in my new book The Self Employed Life, I talked about setting up your systems but set your systems up for the business to come, not the business you currently have. Right so that you’re always in a mindset of growth to You’re always the mindset of a place to go and one of the things I quote I say in that book is that you have to strive to be bored, which is the most backwards way of thinking, for most entrepreneurs and self employed business owners. But if, if your actions in business are to strive to be bored what you’re doing is you’re creating more time and space for you to bring more in 
Instead of right you’re working in the business you’re working on the business is that the old adage,
 
is that I have inferred pertaining to Lingo, I have an added twist to that because I love that advice to work on your business more than it absolutely true. I also think even general advice is to work outside of your business more than on it, meaning, get outside of the business and look at your business from the, from the perspective of your customers and ask yourself, why should I choose you, how do I know that you do how clear is your brand message. That’s the best thing to do, I spoke at a convention of hotel owners, is the Small Business Association of America, and specifically they were hotel accommodations of 75 or fewer rooms, I challenged that room of 300 attendees to make a reservation at their own hotel, go on the website experience what your customers experience and how easy it is to book, be a guest your own towel, spend the night sleep in the room, sit on the toilet, ask yourself why is the toilet holder behind the toilet seat, right can’t reach it, 90% of hotels like how does it nobody experienced that right there’s some designer never took the time to understand the perspective of the people that we’re looking to serve. 
 
So I’m gonna leave it with that you need to see your customers eyes which is
so many companies don’t do it, I have no doubt
CEOs are not doing it. But as we wrap up here I’m going to ask you a few questions about you so for this segment of the interview I want to just do a little bit of rapid fire and see the mind of Jeffrey Shaw. So do you have a favorite word.
 
Empathy. For all the reasons we’ve spoken about today.
 
Do you have a favorite sound the sound that you have,
 
you know, this sound is grown on importance to me and it’s so cliche but the sound of birds. I used to own a lot of canaries and I live in Miami now and we don’t have a lot of pretty birds like you’re not going to northeast. We have parrots that squawk, but. So to me it just, I’m so I just love the sound of a singing bird.
 
I love that. Okay. Um, is there a movie character TV character that you can identify with.
 
I have to go with Winnie the Pooh. He’s such an old soul that I love Winnie the Pooh quotes like I love Winnie the Pooh quotes. He’s such an old soul, and an innocent being, I actually think that’s who I am, I’m not quite as chunky yet. But and I do, I do wear pants.
 
If you could take the play or be anyone or anything, what would you be for a day.
 
You know I love knowing this question is coming because I realized that, for better or worse, like there’s no one else I want to be like I’m comfortable in my own skin. And I’ve spent my career photographing CEOs and, you know, I think probably part of the reason I connect with them is because I respected them but I didn’t like it, want to be them or something. So, honestly, what I would want to be so, it’s no person, but I thought about, like, I’m going to be a dolphin for a day. Oh my gosh, it just looks like so much fun and freeing and, you know, being your mind I get to see dolphins swimming and playing and so for me it’s a dolphin 
 
to leave the audience with is, what are, what are you doing one year from today, right now?
 
you know, I’m grateful for every moment I feel like I live in paradise and grateful for my life. But I do hope a year from now I’m enjoying a fruity alcoholic beverage somewhere. Feeling infinitely proud of the success of the self employed life. And, and feeling that I’m more of an advocate, like I really want to identify my primary role in life, I’ve really looked at and said you know I want to be more of an advocate than a leader, I do believe I’m leading an action, but at the end of day, I really like the idea of advocacy, and just being a voice, a voice that teachers, a voice that speaks, a voice that hears and a voice that takes action on behalf of others and so I’m, I hope a year from now people can can identify that I’m an advocate for self employed business owners.
 
I love it. Well thank you so much Jeffrey Shaw everyone check it out you can see behind Jeffrey’s shoulder there the self employed life which is his book is just being released right now I’m sure it’s available on Amazon and other fine retailers good to have it happen. Jeffrey to speak at your next event, contact me, so just go to goleeward.com, we’ll get Jeffrey on your stage, so he can share it with your self employed business owners. Thanks Jeffrey.
 
Thank you. It was a pleasure.